Outdated heteronormative habits... why?

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 9/25/23 at 10:40am

Weddings continue to infuriate me. Hetero weddings, that is.

Invite from the bride's parents. Ridiculous rehearsal dinners with speeches from idiot pastors. White dress. Father walks bride down the aisle, gives away his property to waiting groom. Mother sits there doing nothing. Groom's parents not involved. Boring speeches. Wife signs away her identity, and adopts husband's. Baby arrives soon after, followed by posed Christmas card photo. Merry Xmas from the Man's Name Family.

[Zeppie2022]

Posted: 9/25/23 at 4:16pm

"Invite from the bride's parents. Ridiculous rehearsal dinners with speeches from idiot pastors. White dress. Father walks bride down the aisle, gives away his property to waiting groom. Mother sits there doing nothing. Groom's parents not involved. Boring speeches. Wife signs away her identity, and adopts husband's. Baby arrives soon after, followed by posed Christmas card photo. Merry Xmas from the Man's Name Family."

You really are a troll, but I will make one quick and last reply. Let me update you a bit about weddings. My wife and I sent out the invitations and paid for our wedding (we wanted to control who was invited). Our rehearsal dinner did not have any speech from a pastor. It was just a very nice dinner with family and the wedding party. My wife may have taken my last name, but she is a very independent woman who has a successful career. Our first child was 3 years after we got married and the time period before our first child was born was spent traveling and seeing the world as much as possible.  We never sent those posed Christmas card photos to anybody because we actually went to visit family and friends during the year. Have a nice day.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 9/25/23 at 5:26pm

Don't take it personally, Zeppie, and stop with the accusations. I talk about what I'm interested in, or what concerns me. That's all I'm doing here, and all I've ever done.

Did your wife wait for you at the altar, as you walked up the aisle? Did you even consider for a moment taking your wife's name, or giving your children her name? Why do only women get engagement rings, and not men too?

Again, I stress that these are questions aimed at hetero men in general, not you personally.

Have a lovely evening.

[kdogg36]

Posted: 9/25/23 at 5:30pm

Focusing on the name issue, these two things can both be true: (1) Everyone has the right to change their name due to marriage (or for any other reason), and we have no reason to judge people for those individual choices. (2) The fact that the vast majority of women in heterosexual marriages change their names, but vanishingly few men do, says something is very wrong with our society.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 9/25/23 at 6:14pm

Well... I feel I can judge them at least alittle. For carrying forward patriarchal norms. Older generations I judge less harsly, obviously, times were harder. Also, it's not always necessarily a choice... it's what expected. A convention that can not be questioned. Case in point, Hillary Rodham Clinton. She had originally kept her own name, and not taken Bill's. She was pressured into taking the Clinton name only after her husband became governor of Arkansas. She did not prove popular with the electorate for having the temerity to have a mind of her own. Only for political reasons, did she give in. To this day, it is hard to imagine a First Lady who has kept her own name.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/25/23 at 10:34pm

The day is for Amy.

 

A wedding. What's a wedding? It's a prehistoric ritual.

[Zeppie2022]

Posted: 9/26/23 at 5:16pm

Sutton Ross - It seems your post which gave me advice on this thread was taken down. I agree 100% with it and will follow your advice on this matter. 

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 10/3/23 at 7:32pm

Robin Wright Penn. Why no Sean Penn Wright?

Kim Kardashian West. Why no Kanye West Kardashian?

Courtney Cox Arquette. Why no David Arquette Cox?

Hillary Rodham Clinton. Why no Bill Clinton Rodham?

Priyanka Chopra Jonas. Why no Nick Jonas Chopra?

Heteronormative patriarchy sucks.

[darquegk]

Posted: 10/4/23 at 10:47am

Jay Lerner-Z, I can't always tell where you fall on the spectrum of "passionate ideologue," "provocateur to start debate" and "troll," but your posts are always interesting and raise questions.

This one reminds me of a teacher I had in grad school for women's, gender and queer studies. She was an ardent second wave feminist, and she made inflammatory statements constantly to provoke debate. I could never tell which ones she believed and didn't believe, but they would be things like "all men are either former rapists or future rapists," "heterosexual sex is always rape or coercion because even in the most consenting and romantic situations the threat of social stigma and assault is implied," and even "only homosexuality is valid as a standard for human behavior; heterosexuality or heterosexual desire is a mix of denial with capitulation to the animal instinct that the evolved homosexual mind rises above."

I'm assuming she was either a crank or a troll, but I'm sure there are people with more degrees or more current degrees who can say "no, she's right."

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 10/4/23 at 3:39pm

Hm, darquegk... thanks for the compliment? I think.

Your teacher sounds like a fun person, but I don't think I've ever gone quite that far. On your spectrum, I would diagnose myself mostly as the first thing you mentioned, leaning a little toward the second... but rule out the third entirely.

Anything I say, I mean. Usually.

If occasionally I might go a little too far, it's only because I've been told time and time again that I am unwelcome here. Maybe a little resentment can sometimes seep through.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 10/14/23 at 1:02pm

I saw this today. At least I'm not the only one. Australian writer Brianna Parkins is funnier and says it better than I can.

Women are taught to achieve marriage, and men to evade it

Part and parcel of having friends and family is the obligation to attend weddings occasionally. The people in our lives who would notice us missing and notify the police in a timely manner tend to have an annoying habit of falling in love, getting married and demanding our involvement in the process. Making small talk with their friends from social tennis or their old jobs is a small price to pay in the scheme of things for making sure your body would be found before it decomposed.

Sometimes it's even quite fun, and you end up with a new friend, or at the very least, an acquaintance you will add on social media and never speak to again - you'll just watch their lives take shape from afar as you get oddly invested in their Instagram posts. There are people I met at an event 10 years ago who I have watched split from their partner, remarry and have a baby through tiny tiles of pictures on the internet, like a benign but slightly creepy guardian angel rooting for them in silence as they start their dream decorative balloon arch business.

So, when I sit down to a table of strangers, I am on my game. These are people who could be in my social media feeds for years to come, and me in theirs, so I have to make a good impression. Once we slog through the "how do you know so and so" introductions, we're out in open water. Like other neurodivergent people, I try to workshop a small talk script beforehand so I don't accidentally ask someone what their tax return was, or if they have any childhood trauma, before the main course.

If there are couples, I stick to the social safe harbour of asking "so how did you meet?" It's a useful one because people like talking about themselves, they have rehearsed this story before, and if they have an embarrassing one they'd rather not talk about, they will have a mutually pre-agreed lie. Everyone wins but especially me, securing the title of "Most normal wedding guest chat maker" of the evening.

At a wedding recently, I was one-upped when a guest asked how the men had "popped the question" to their female partners. I wanted to know how you go about asking another person to hang around with you for the rest of your life when they could be doing something else. It's odd that a one-sentence question on a beach is more popular than presenting a deck of slides as a sales pitch, but that's how love works.

Some were sweet (one had written a book of letters with the question at the end), some seemed manipulative (asking at a tourist attraction where there was an audience and she would feel pressured into saying yes) and some were just odd.

"She was at me to do it for ages and we weren't getting younger," said one man, in a joking-but-not-really tone. I had heard it before, in a groom's speech at another wedding. "Well she finally got her way and dragged me up the aisle," said the man of his new wife who had got up at 6am to get her makeup done. They had been together for ten years and had three kids. She made him dinner every night. He did not find himself waking up on a navy vessel after drunkenly enlisting while on a bender, but he kept hinting he'd been shanghaied into marrying who he clearly loved and was committed to.

At another wedding, the bride described the proposal. The couple were away on holiday when they had a row. She broke down in frustrated tears because he had not asked her to marry him yet. She was tired of waiting. Wasn't she good enough? "Ergh, just a second," he said and fetched the ring from his bag. Everyone laughed at the story, which personally I would not have admitted under the pain of torture.

Surely we all know that women want nothing more than to achieve being married, while men must avoid it for as long as they can - even though it benefits men more, according to research on happiness and health outcomes. We have made coaxing men into marrying women into a cottage industry with dating coaches and relationship gurus flogging books about how to "get the ring", with thousands of pages of conflicting and complicated rules like "don't ever say you want to get married for you must conceal every real thought and feeling from him until you have him in the net", and "don't move in with him, men won't buy a cow when he's getting the milk for free because women are livestock". Some say to cook for him to advertise the benefits, others say "don't do wife duties at girlfriend prices". It's a confusing high-stakes game with everything on the line.

It's a shame really. Imagine if women didn't feel pressured to audition for men, or to provide a free trial service in the hope they won't cancel with the full subscription charged. Women could use the energy and effort to get another degree, to learn a language or take up competitive table tennis. They could spend their one precious life enjoying themselves instead of convincing a reluctant man to take it off their hands and join it with his. And if a proposal does happen, there will be a better story to tell chatty strangers at weddings.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 10/18/23 at 6:00pm

Gender reveal parties.

What do you think of them? I watched a video of a sweet couple throwing theirs recently. Out their back yard, both armed with glitter cannons. After a crowd countdown, the cannons fired a mess of blue confetti. They both looked thrilled, and the husband made a golfing motion, signalling "hole in one" to show what a manly man he is.

Abhorrent.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 10/21/23 at 8:01am

I hate these, too, for so many reasons.  How can we, as a society, be making strides towards alternate gender acceptance yet still put so much oomph into the biological result before ever letting the child "be".

I have 2 kids, one of each. Love both my kids (duh), but our having a boy was only exciting because he's the only male of his generation on his father's side... After 6 girls. 

 

That being said, I just don't understand the extent that we have turned into a "look at me, look at me" society. 

 

 

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 1/9/24 at 4:13pm

Baby Boy has been born, alive and well. Happily giving his parents some perspective on what is truly important on life.

Mom and Dad had their wedding planned when they discovered the little guy was on the way, which meant postponement of the occasion. For some reason, being seven months pregnant would have ruined the photos. Also no alcohol for the bride. Now the ceremony is scheduled for sometime in 2025. Once upon a time, an unexpected pregnancy would sped up the vows, now it delays them.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 1/9/24 at 4:20pm

Oh, and of course bubs still gets Daddy's surname. Marriage or not.

I've been thinking about this, and have come to the conclusion that it comes down to insecurity. Mothers have carried the child for nine months, they do not need any reassurance of their connection to the child. Whereas men somehow NEED to share their name to give them some sort of manly bond. It somehow locks them in as family. Fair theory?

[kdogg36]

Posted: 1/9/24 at 5:57pm

Jay Lerner-Z said: "Once upon a time, an unexpected pregnancy would sped up the vows, now it delays them."

Well, that's some progress, I would say.

Regarding your theory, I think that makes sense. But I also know that the tradition of an entire family taking a man's surname comes from a misogynist past where men basically owned their wives and kids, and modern couples should decline to participate in such a tradition.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 1/9/24 at 6:33pm

Agreed. Too many people seem to be completely unaware of this. Sad.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 1/18/24 at 8:47pm

The social convention of “boys names” and “girls names”... why does this persist?

Is there any rational reason why a newborn boy can not be called Maria, or a newborn girl be named Abraham? Why can a male child not be named after his grandmother, or a newborn female child become Walter Rutherford IV, after her father Walter Rutherford III?

Updated On: 1/18/24 at 08:47 PM

[Islander_fan]

Posted: 1/19/24 at 3:18pm

You of all people should not dictate how women go about doing anything as it relates to family and marriage. 

 

There was a thread a good while back where, not only did you say that women should feel a particular way when it comes to things like a man popping the question or them taking their husbands way, but there were women who posted and called you out on it. And yet, you’re here again suggesting that how they (any given woman) wish to do things is wrong and you’re judging them in the process. Any reason why a woman would want to take her husband’s last name is valid. It’s valid because personal opinion that they choose to make. 

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 1/19/24 at 4:49pm

I’m not sure I understand your point. By your own logic, if only women are allowed have thoughts on this subject, your own opinion is not valid. 
As I’ve tried to explain to you before, gender stereotypes and outdated social conventions effect us ALL.
 

 

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 1/19/24 at 4:55pm

Also, you seem to have completely missed my point that it is not always “personal opinion”... sometimes it is societal pressure.

[Islander_fan]

Posted: 1/19/24 at 5:45pm

Couple of things, first off, I don’t have any opinion one way or the other as to why a woman would choose to change her last name when married or not. That’s up to them, not me. I honestly don’t care why a Newley wed woman will or will not take their husbands name. 

And, I do not, for a moment buy into your bogus notion that everything wrong with weddings today, has all to do with social pressure. Yet, earlier in this very thread, there were women who did post here, stating that they like the traditional aspects of things. Some really loved the idea of the man popping the question or taking the husbands last name. That should have been it. Yet, you continued to say that you have a right to judge a little should a woman take her husbands last name. And, continued to backpedal when you were getting up in arms about things that women thought were not that big a deal. You seem like you’re championing some great cause. Fact of the matter is that after you got egg on your face by being told by female posters that that which you’re bothered by are things that they liked, you should have stopped right there. And yet, you continued on by trying to suggest that the way they feel isn’t the way they should feel.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 1/19/24 at 5:59pm

I have not backpedalled at all.

I believe that the practice of women taking their husband's surname upon marriage is outdated and patriarchal. I can fully accept that others may think differently. Just because one or more women might disagree with me does not in any way invalidate my own feelings on the matter.

One woman posting on this thread does not represent half the human species, she speaks only for herself. I am not obliged to defer to her every thought.

Have you heard of Mrs. Phyllis Schlafly?

[kdogg36]

Posted: 1/19/24 at 6:20pm

Islander_fan said: "Any reason why a woman would want to take her husband’s last name is valid. It’s valid because personal opinion that they choose to make."

I agree with this, and it's true of men as well, but the fact that vastly more women in a heterosexual marriage take the man's name than vice versa shows that something has gone wrong in our society. I don't think the two ideas are contradictory. 

Updated On: 1/19/24 at 06:20 PM

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 1/19/24 at 6:44pm

It would be considered demeaning for a man to take his wife's name and lose his own. Most, if not all, grooms never for a moment even consider  it.

Why is this? My theory. Women have NEVER had their own names. Let's cite the Clintons. Hillary Rodham's original surname is her father's name. Not her mother's, which was originally Howell. Which in turn was her own father's, Hillary's grandfather. Even a modern thinker like Hillary who retains her own surname, at least partially, then passes on her husband's name to her own daughter. Chelsea Clinton. It all comes back to the woman being the "property" of the husband, and the man the "head of the household"...

Am I making any sense?

A groom taking his bride's name is really just taking his father-in-law's name, which is why it doesn't happen.